Threads / TC: Micheal Phelps is NOWHERE near the best Olympian ever
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First of all, swimming gives out medals like they are novelty pens. Imagine what Jesse Owens could've done if they allowed the 100m Backwards sprint, 50m Moonwalk, 200m Tippy-toes Run, and 100m Skipping Medley. And then RELAYS for all of them. Phelps simply has more medals because he has so many more events. Is he great? Sure. But give Carl Lewis 4 running styles AND 2-4 different distances AND relays. The man would be a private Fort Knox. Phelps has simply chosen to be prolific at the the most prolific Olympic sport. Now if Phelps won some diving golds to even out Owens/Lewis long jump medals, then I might be more understanding
Next, the suit. I know, I know -- he is better than anyone even if they weren't wearing hyper-Speedos. But to me, the suit dampens the achievement. Just look at all of the swimming World Records that have been set at these Games. Its a mockery. Some events are seeing records fall by several seconds EACH HEAT. It's a joke. And one could argue that Barry Bonds was a superior hitter that just HAPPENED to play when the game was rife with performance enhancers. I mean, everybody else was using them, right? Phelps could easily see his times looked at by history as being the dawn of an un-natural era.
It also helps that he is American. This is the one time every 4 years that Joe American cares about swimming. And if the US sucked at it, we'd never see it on TV in prime time, and nobody would notice because we'd be too busy breaking down Alicia Sacramone's unsuccessful fight against gravity.
So what we have is a perfect storm of hype and patriotism. My point is this: Phelps is the all-time most NBC hyped 2008 Olympian, not the greatest Olympic athlete ever. It's impossible to weigh his achievements against those of people 20-100 years ago when opportunities were more limited and less developed. He simply has had more chances to succeed in the limelight than any other Olympic athlete in our lifetimes. He is great, but I guarantee that there have been many better Olympic athletes than he.
Next, the suit. I know, I know -- he is better than anyone even if they weren't wearing hyper-Speedos. But to me, the suit dampens the achievement. Just look at all of the swimming World Records that have been set at these Games. Its a mockery. Some events are seeing records fall by several seconds EACH HEAT. It's a joke. And one could argue that Barry Bonds was a superior hitter that just HAPPENED to play when the game was rife with performance enhancers. I mean, everybody else was using them, right? Phelps could easily see his times looked at by history as being the dawn of an un-natural era.
It also helps that he is American. This is the one time every 4 years that Joe American cares about swimming. And if the US sucked at it, we'd never see it on TV in prime time, and nobody would notice because we'd be too busy breaking down Alicia Sacramone's unsuccessful fight against gravity.
So what we have is a perfect storm of hype and patriotism. My point is this: Phelps is the all-time most NBC hyped 2008 Olympian, not the greatest Olympic athlete ever. It's impossible to weigh his achievements against those of people 20-100 years ago when opportunities were more limited and less developed. He simply has had more chances to succeed in the limelight than any other Olympic athlete in our lifetimes. He is great, but I guarantee that there have been many better Olympic athletes than he.
I'd love to be on ATH -- all those guys do is make predictions that go wrong, then come back the next day spewing a totally different opinion from what they had 24 hours earlier.
Marriotti is the worst.
Marriotti is the worst.
I agree with the title so I can't argue this one but I will say that speedos are dead to me now that I saw my 5'2" fat Italian Uncle wearing them and a sweater into the hot tub (only he wasn't actually wearing a sweater).
you've obviously never been to a beach infested with Canadians
I think you're splitting hair on this one. When an athlete dominates like he does it is not a fluke, he has put it his physical condition and mental toughness together as one to win all phases of swimming competition is just awesome.
You put up a great argument.
But you can't blame the suit...everyone there is wearing the suit. (Well, at least all the people that can "compete" with him.) But to me the suit does dampen the World Record achievements.
However, if he does manage to win 8 golds and break 8 world records. That's just amazing!
I agree with you about Track and Field. In swimming he only needs to master 4 swimming styles and there are 8 medals for that!?
I think decathletes are more talented. Not only do they have to master the three types of running (sprint, mid-distance, and distance). They have to mast the different techniques of throwing, and the three different styles of jumping. (and I'm not sure if pole-vault is in there!).
If you ask me the Decathlon should be worth three medals!
But you can't blame the suit...everyone there is wearing the suit. (Well, at least all the people that can "compete" with him.) But to me the suit does dampen the World Record achievements.
However, if he does manage to win 8 golds and break 8 world records. That's just amazing!
I agree with you about Track and Field. In swimming he only needs to master 4 swimming styles and there are 8 medals for that!?
I think decathletes are more talented. Not only do they have to master the three types of running (sprint, mid-distance, and distance). They have to mast the different techniques of throwing, and the three different styles of jumping. (and I'm not sure if pole-vault is in there!).
If you ask me the Decathlon should be worth three medals!
Once again, I am not saying the suit is why he does so well. I merely bring up the fact that smashing records everytime out loses its effect when EVERYBODY is smashing records in every discipline.
His superiority over his competition is obvious, but some people need perspective if they gauge greatness merely by a medal count. Yes, 8 for 8 would be amazing, no doubt.
His superiority over his competition is obvious, but some people need perspective if they gauge greatness merely by a medal count. Yes, 8 for 8 would be amazing, no doubt.
we are all just meat to you, aren't we?
I yearn for the day that we will be taken just as seriously for our ideas and root/boo ratios
I yearn for the day that we will be taken just as seriously for our ideas and root/boo ratios
size queen
I disagree but it's your opinion. He still has to compete with the best of the world, more often. Those extra races could easily fatigue him for his "lock" races. It's hard to say that Owens or Lewis would have won more, it's all speculation---they probably would have. But he is dominating his sport, winning every event he is in, and breaking every record while he does it.
He has 11 and could potentially leave with 14. He also said he will compete in 2012.
Has the potential for 22 Gold Medals. That's insane. No matter how many events he has to compete in.
He has 11 and could potentially leave with 14. He also said he will compete in 2012.
Has the potential for 22 Gold Medals. That's insane. No matter how many events he has to compete in.
He's already said that he will not go for all 8 in 2012 - He plans to cut back to 2-4 events, which further illustrates how crazy it is that he can do that.
As opposed to a guy competing in decathlons or heptathlons who must master a dizzying array of skills for the payoff of just 1 medal per Olympics
As for all of the records, once again, who ISN'T breaking a swimming record this year? Nearly all of the records have fallen due to the new suits. That stat isn't as impressive as it once was.
As opposed to a guy competing in decathlons or heptathlons who must master a dizzying array of skills for the payoff of just 1 medal per Olympics
As for all of the records, once again, who ISN'T breaking a swimming record this year? Nearly all of the records have fallen due to the new suits. That stat isn't as impressive as it once was.
I hear ya. This is the first Olympics I have truly followed faithfully, so I guess I'm a bit biased.
And I definitely think it's strange about all the World records falling. I didn't know anything about their suits.
It's just hard comparing greats from two different competitions. I'm just a fan of all this gold coming back to the U.S. of A.
And I definitely think it's strange about all the World records falling. I didn't know anything about their suits.
It's just hard comparing greats from two different competitions. I'm just a fan of all this gold coming back to the U.S. of A.
He might very well be the best Olympian ever...It depends how you define "best"...He certainly has the most gold medals which is one indication.
Your statement that they are giving swimming medals away like "novelty pens" has a highly exaggerated point but a more limited one than you might realize. There are 17 swimming events and 15 running related events in the Olympics (excluding any "field" events).
Owens in the 1936 Olympics won 4 golds but broke the world record only in one--the 4 x 100 relay. He never participated in any other Olympics. Tremendous political impact here...
Lewis on the other hand was in 4 Olympics (1984,88,92,96) winning 9 golds and one silver in running events and long jump...The International Olympic Committee elected him Olympic Athlete of the Century...For what ever drug tests might mean, Lewis subsequently tested positive for pseudo-ephedrine and other drugs at the Seoul Olympics. I don't know what that means..
Phelps VOLUNTEERED for extra drug testing at these Olympics...Draw your own conclusions....and has X # of gold medals in 2 Olympics.
Swim Suits, Ski equipment and all sorts of stuff change all the time, but in the Olympics you are competing against people with the same access to the same equipment so I'm not sure this point means anything...
The Phelps career isn't even over yet, so time will tell.
Your statement that they are giving swimming medals away like "novelty pens" has a highly exaggerated point but a more limited one than you might realize. There are 17 swimming events and 15 running related events in the Olympics (excluding any "field" events).
Owens in the 1936 Olympics won 4 golds but broke the world record only in one--the 4 x 100 relay. He never participated in any other Olympics. Tremendous political impact here...
Lewis on the other hand was in 4 Olympics (1984,88,92,96) winning 9 golds and one silver in running events and long jump...The International Olympic Committee elected him Olympic Athlete of the Century...For what ever drug tests might mean, Lewis subsequently tested positive for pseudo-ephedrine and other drugs at the Seoul Olympics. I don't know what that means..
Phelps VOLUNTEERED for extra drug testing at these Olympics...Draw your own conclusions....and has X # of gold medals in 2 Olympics.
Swim Suits, Ski equipment and all sorts of stuff change all the time, but in the Olympics you are competing against people with the same access to the same equipment so I'm not sure this point means anything...
The Phelps career isn't even over yet, so time will tell.
15 of 17 swimming events are 400m or less -- there are simply too many swimming events overall compared to any other sport. Your 15 running events include hurdles, long distance events, race walking, steeplechase, sprints and middle distances. There are so many varied skills tested in those 15 land events that athletes are forced to specialized, which is less the case in swimming.
you bring up Lewis "drug use" -- I think its safe to say that his competitors more than likely had the same ingredients. A performance enhancer is a performance enhancer when distributed evenly to all competitors. Whether it be a suit or an injection.
Numerous athletes have volunteered for super testing. Its great and everything, but bears no relevance to this conversation.
He can keep swimming until the cows come home. He'll already have more medals than any other human ever -- which still makes my point. Just because he has the most medals DOES NOT mean he is the best ever. He simply has had more chances to win than athletes in other sports.
you bring up Lewis "drug use" -- I think its safe to say that his competitors more than likely had the same ingredients. A performance enhancer is a performance enhancer when distributed evenly to all competitors. Whether it be a suit or an injection.
Numerous athletes have volunteered for super testing. Its great and everything, but bears no relevance to this conversation.
He can keep swimming until the cows come home. He'll already have more medals than any other human ever -- which still makes my point. Just because he has the most medals DOES NOT mean he is the best ever. He simply has had more chances to win than athletes in other sports.
Hey, Blazz, we're having a substantive conversation here.....Go to the My Favorite Candy Thread with your shit...
I think that's called 'soccer' and it should be coming up any day now
More power to him -- its not like I'm rooting against him, that's for sure. I agree with you.
Just got tired of NBC jamming him down my gullet as the bestest ever ever
Just got tired of NBC jamming him down my gullet as the bestest ever ever
No problem, I got you covered:
Old champions good. Phelps good. Swimming gives more medals than other events. Phelps gets more medal chances. Can't tell if him better than old guys in other sports. Total medals seems unfair way to judge.
Old champions good. Phelps good. Swimming gives more medals than other events. Phelps gets more medal chances. Can't tell if him better than old guys in other sports. Total medals seems unfair way to judge.
Jesse Owens not better...
Carl Lewis used drugs
Phelps better
Try other Olympians...
opps that 4 lines
Carl Lewis used drugs
Phelps better
Try other Olympians...
opps that 4 lines
how can you possibly measure Jesse Owens < Phelps? That's a pure guess on your part, based only on the fact that you've actually seen Phelps perform. Once again, Phelps gets more chances -- Owens only had 1 Olympics to thrive.
Lewis' alleged use of performance enhancers is canceled out by Phelps' obvious use of a performance enhancing suit -- lemme guess, science IN the body is worse than science ON the body -- whatever. You can't base an allegation of drug use while wishing away the fact that his competition was doing the same.
Emil Zapotec won the 5000m, 10000m and the Marathon in the 1952 Games, all within 8 days -- and all with a glandular infection that his doctor told him not to race with. That's more impressive to me than a handful of swimming medals, for sure.
Lewis' alleged use of performance enhancers is canceled out by Phelps' obvious use of a performance enhancing suit -- lemme guess, science IN the body is worse than science ON the body -- whatever. You can't base an allegation of drug use while wishing away the fact that his competition was doing the same.
Emil Zapotec won the 5000m, 10000m and the Marathon in the 1952 Games, all within 8 days -- and all with a glandular infection that his doctor told him not to race with. That's more impressive to me than a handful of swimming medals, for sure.
OOO I see now well if I read from that I can see this justs goes back to the old arguement of comparing athletes in any sports to those in generations past in there same sport it's very hard to do and there will always be an arguement for both sides. I cant compare Spitz and Phelps, I never watched Spitz but what I can say is Phelps is an amazing athlete and is the best oplympic athlete in the games of which I watched in my opinion and of what I heard it was the same with Spitz in his heyday. (see 2 sentences run-ons but 2 sentences)
haha
the fact you did that in 2 sentences deserves a root
the fact you did that in 2 sentences deserves a root
but that is the nature of athletics. we figure out how to do things faster, stronger and smarter. phelps is dominating swimming like no one else ever has. the other people have the same advantages as he does like the new suits and he still shitsmokes them.
phelps definitely isnt the #1 olympian ever just yet, and there is a ton of hype around him, but however, he still is absolutely dominant, and i don't see how much sense it makes trying to discredit him or make him seem anything less than phenomenal.
it really sounds like no matter what he does you won't ever consider him as highly as people like owen and that isn't fair since he will have tons of golds and records before it's all said and done.
how do you explain this:
one of the announcer guys who used to swim said he swam like 4 times in 8 days and thought he was going to die... phelps swims multiple times per day and sometimes only has an hour in between each one... in that time he has to cool down, attend a medal ceremony, and warm back up. he is a freak.
phelps definitely isnt the #1 olympian ever just yet, and there is a ton of hype around him, but however, he still is absolutely dominant, and i don't see how much sense it makes trying to discredit him or make him seem anything less than phenomenal.
it really sounds like no matter what he does you won't ever consider him as highly as people like owen and that isn't fair since he will have tons of golds and records before it's all said and done.
how do you explain this:
one of the announcer guys who used to swim said he swam like 4 times in 8 days and thought he was going to die... phelps swims multiple times per day and sometimes only has an hour in between each one... in that time he has to cool down, attend a medal ceremony, and warm back up. he is a freak.
But other Olympians through the ages have dominated their sports as well. Its only due to age and NBC do we stick to Phelps like glue.
And again, for the 50th time -- He absolutely IS phenomenal, but to throw the crown of 'best Olympic athlete ever' is absurd. Most people are only basing it on medal count -- he has more chances to win. Some base it on records --- all swimming events are seeing records smashed. Give me a basis where he is the better than all of the Olympians of the last 100 years.
I assume you are referring to Rowdy Gaines -- hmm, he swam with Matt Biondi, who won 7 medals at the 1988 Games, so obviously there are more 'freaks' out there than either of you remember
Go back and read this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about regarding me disparaging Phelps accomplishments -- I'm trying to reach people who have lost complete perspective. Sound familiar?
And again, for the 50th time -- He absolutely IS phenomenal, but to throw the crown of 'best Olympic athlete ever' is absurd. Most people are only basing it on medal count -- he has more chances to win. Some base it on records --- all swimming events are seeing records smashed. Give me a basis where he is the better than all of the Olympians of the last 100 years.
I assume you are referring to Rowdy Gaines -- hmm, he swam with Matt Biondi, who won 7 medals at the 1988 Games, so obviously there are more 'freaks' out there than either of you remember
Go back and read this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about regarding me disparaging Phelps accomplishments -- I'm trying to reach people who have lost complete perspective. Sound familiar?
Biondi won 7 medals but did he win 7 golds and pretty much break a record every time he got in the pool?
How about that for your basis: How many people have laid waste to world records every time they compete? His competition smashes the old records too, and Phelps still wins. It has shit to do with his bathing suit or anything else: he is the best swimmer ever, and when he is done, will have more golds and world records than anyone. What else would you use to rate the best olympian ever?
How about that for your basis: How many people have laid waste to world records every time they compete? His competition smashes the old records too, and Phelps still wins. It has shit to do with his bathing suit or anything else: he is the best swimmer ever, and when he is done, will have more golds and world records than anyone. What else would you use to rate the best olympian ever?
In 40 track and field events, 30 have world records set before 2000
In 32 swimming events, 26 have new world records since Athens in 2004
Besides the suit, pool technology creates faster times (deeper, wider pools like The Cube, make for faster swimming -- The Cube's pool is a meter deeper than most racing pools built today). So please, don't try to tell me that swimming records mean anything anymore. How many people lay waste to swimming records? Pretty much everybody who wins, whether they're named Phelps or not.
Biondi didn't win 7 golds, no, but scores of medals by swimmers isn't a total rarity, which is my point. Spitz was 7 for 7 gold. Eric Heiden was 5 for 5 golds at the Winter Games in 1980. Paavo Nurmi won the 1500m and 5000m within 2 hours of each other, then 2 days later won the 10000m and 3000m in successive days. Zapotec won the 5000m, 10000m and the marathon in the span of 8 days while injured.
How can you rate Phelps above any of those people?
In 32 swimming events, 26 have new world records since Athens in 2004
Besides the suit, pool technology creates faster times (deeper, wider pools like The Cube, make for faster swimming -- The Cube's pool is a meter deeper than most racing pools built today). So please, don't try to tell me that swimming records mean anything anymore. How many people lay waste to swimming records? Pretty much everybody who wins, whether they're named Phelps or not.
Biondi didn't win 7 golds, no, but scores of medals by swimmers isn't a total rarity, which is my point. Spitz was 7 for 7 gold. Eric Heiden was 5 for 5 golds at the Winter Games in 1980. Paavo Nurmi won the 1500m and 5000m within 2 hours of each other, then 2 days later won the 10000m and 3000m in successive days. Zapotec won the 5000m, 10000m and the marathon in the span of 8 days while injured.
How can you rate Phelps above any of those people?
Disagree with you Phelps is one of the best Olympics. He has to race like 2 races a day. No one else can do what he does. He has a race then a hour to rest not 1/2 a day or 24 hours
At what point did I say he wasn't one of the best? He clearly is one of the best we have ever seen -- but THE best? No way.
You can't say 'nobody' else, because Mark Spitz already did it 30 years ago. Also, plenty of swimmers have won a ton of medals at one Olympic Games (Matt Biondi won 7 medals in 1988, for example). Yes he is dominating, I have said as much repeatedly. But just because he has the most medals, doesn't mean he's the best Olympian ever. It means he choose a sport that gave him the most opportunities. That doesn't equal 'best athlete ever'.
You can't say 'nobody' else, because Mark Spitz already did it 30 years ago. Also, plenty of swimmers have won a ton of medals at one Olympic Games (Matt Biondi won 7 medals in 1988, for example). Yes he is dominating, I have said as much repeatedly. But just because he has the most medals, doesn't mean he's the best Olympian ever. It means he choose a sport that gave him the most opportunities. That doesn't equal 'best athlete ever'.
At what point.....In the Title, I quote "nowhere near the best Olympian"---He's pretty fuckin near.....
one of the best
but not anywhere near THE best
(Mike Schmidt was one of the best baseball players of all-time, but nowhere near THE best baseball player ever)
that is the point of the thread
I'm not saying he sucks or anything, calm down
but not anywhere near THE best
(Mike Schmidt was one of the best baseball players of all-time, but nowhere near THE best baseball player ever)
that is the point of the thread
I'm not saying he sucks or anything, calm down
Comparing athletes of the same sport across the generations is an impossible task. Its like apples and oranges. There are just so many differences that any attempt at comparison just becomes a matter of opinion. If we cannot accurately measure his performances against those from the past, then how can you use that argument to say that he is not simply the greatest? He might very well be, you can neither prove nor disprove it based on that.
You argue that it is somehow easier to get a medal in swimming as compared to track and field. On what basis? that there are more events to join? that may be true, but more opportunities to win also mean more opportunities to lose. Just because Phelps shows up doesn't mean he is going to win, he has to beat other athletes with comparable talent and equipment.
Or do you think that track and field in general is just more difficult and complex than swimming? How do you quantify that? These are two totally different sports with different challenges. Once again, apples and oranges. Unless track and field stars come to the pool and start dominating, it is just a matter of opinion.
Just because swimmers are smashing WR's all around, doesn't make it any easier to win. As you have yourself noticed, many other swimmers have come under the WR but that didn't mean a whole lot since Phelps was still faster. These swimmers are not racing records, they are racing each other.
In the end how you determine the greatest depends on how you define being great. I personally, would define it as the amount of success the athlete has achieved, ie. gold medals, the level of domination displayed, and the duration of that domination. While it is not clear if Phelps has achieved the title of greatest Olympian, he certainly has achieved enough to present a good argument for it.
You argue that it is somehow easier to get a medal in swimming as compared to track and field. On what basis? that there are more events to join? that may be true, but more opportunities to win also mean more opportunities to lose. Just because Phelps shows up doesn't mean he is going to win, he has to beat other athletes with comparable talent and equipment.
Or do you think that track and field in general is just more difficult and complex than swimming? How do you quantify that? These are two totally different sports with different challenges. Once again, apples and oranges. Unless track and field stars come to the pool and start dominating, it is just a matter of opinion.
Just because swimmers are smashing WR's all around, doesn't make it any easier to win. As you have yourself noticed, many other swimmers have come under the WR but that didn't mean a whole lot since Phelps was still faster. These swimmers are not racing records, they are racing each other.
In the end how you determine the greatest depends on how you define being great. I personally, would define it as the amount of success the athlete has achieved, ie. gold medals, the level of domination displayed, and the duration of that domination. While it is not clear if Phelps has achieved the title of greatest Olympian, he certainly has achieved enough to present a good argument for it.
i still think hes the greatest olympian. i mean, your questioning his durability as a swimmer. i dont think its fair to say that Phelps should win in diving to compare to lewis and Owens winning in long jumps. because Diving is whole different animal. it almost has nothing to do with swimming. its literally gymnastics with water. where the long jump shared much more related skill for runners.
and about the swimsuits, i dont see much wrong with it. just as long as it follows the code. to me its probably gonna be looked at just another advancment in sports 20 years from now, just as how we look at the first shoes with air pockets today.
the thing is, if were gonna blame him for being American, then arent americans considered less motivated? i mean Americans are soo caught up on money that if they go to the olympics and win one or two golds, thats all there gonna give. they got a prize, so why put in more work?
Phelps shows a different side.
hes out there to be the best. constantly perfecting his weaknesses to get himself closest to perfection.
i think Phelps puts a big impact on America, not just because of how good he is, but because of how he looks at success, he cares about being the best, not being the richest. and i think having him on NBC is a good thing, because it shows the US that sports are more than just getting big contracts and a celebrity status, because to be honest, we only hear from phelps when the olympics are going on, the rest of the years hes not spotted daily on sports illustrated or put on GQ for a sexy photoshoot.
and about the swimsuits, i dont see much wrong with it. just as long as it follows the code. to me its probably gonna be looked at just another advancment in sports 20 years from now, just as how we look at the first shoes with air pockets today.
the thing is, if were gonna blame him for being American, then arent americans considered less motivated? i mean Americans are soo caught up on money that if they go to the olympics and win one or two golds, thats all there gonna give. they got a prize, so why put in more work?
Phelps shows a different side.
hes out there to be the best. constantly perfecting his weaknesses to get himself closest to perfection.
i think Phelps puts a big impact on America, not just because of how good he is, but because of how he looks at success, he cares about being the best, not being the richest. and i think having him on NBC is a good thing, because it shows the US that sports are more than just getting big contracts and a celebrity status, because to be honest, we only hear from phelps when the olympics are going on, the rest of the years hes not spotted daily on sports illustrated or put on GQ for a sexy photoshoot.
you missed my points
BECAUSE he is American, WE elevate his performance more and NBC televises his every move and jams it down our eyeballs.
How people turn this into American bashing, I have no idea.
THE SUIT: you can't base his greatest ever-ness on records if everybody in swimming is breaking records with the suit, etc. It cheapens his accomplishments to pull the record card now that swimming records only live until the next race.
I know these sports are different animals - that's my point. If there were 15 different running events less than 400m, like swimming, you would see more tracksters with greater medal counts. You rarely see different length races (200m & 400m for example) won by the same runner, you ROUTINELY see it in swimming.
BECAUSE he is American, WE elevate his performance more and NBC televises his every move and jams it down our eyeballs.
How people turn this into American bashing, I have no idea.
THE SUIT: you can't base his greatest ever-ness on records if everybody in swimming is breaking records with the suit, etc. It cheapens his accomplishments to pull the record card now that swimming records only live until the next race.
I know these sports are different animals - that's my point. If there were 15 different running events less than 400m, like swimming, you would see more tracksters with greater medal counts. You rarely see different length races (200m & 400m for example) won by the same runner, you ROUTINELY see it in swimming.
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